Wednesday, April 19, 2006

Rebel Flag Thread

So, my boys Publius and DoubleDawgDareYa over at Athens Politics are back from blog vacation, and the first thing that happens is I get in a tiff with an anonymous commentor about the dern Rebel Flag.

So I thought we'd just go ahead and have a Rebel Flag thread here. Anyone?

33 comments:

petallic said...

You already articulated how I feel about this issue on the other board.

To state that all rebel flag wavers are racist is failing to see the forest for the trees.

hillary said...

And I'm trying to argue with you over there.

To state that the issue comes down to people saying all rebel flag wavers are racist is just as ridiculous.

S.A.W.B. said...

I don't really have any commentary on this issue, as this 'states rights' clown won't make it to June with his campaign.

That said, Perdue did what was possibly the best thing possible when he put the flags up for a vote, either the Denny's menu, or the pre '56 flag, no other choices.

Is the pre-'56 flag a Confederate icon? Yeah.

Do you actually have to know your history to know that? Yeah.

In the end, the original flag issue wasn't really about the 'rebel flag' being a tool of oppression, a symbol of racism, and a wont to harken back to the days of Jim Crow. The issue was that the rebel flag was the most identifiable, and most easily targetted symbol of the Old South, the Confederacy, and of the lunatic fringe that makes up yours and my cousins in the Klan.

Dante said...

I just get a laugh in every time I think about how Georgia replaced a flag with a confederate logo on it with a flag that is a blatant copy of the nation flag of the confederacy and that's ok with most people.

patsbrother said...
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patsbrother said...

Amazing timing. As, just this morning, I espied the new Georgia flag flying from the Kappa Alpha porch. Not the old Georgia flag. And not the bigger than all sin Confederate flag they used to display each spring (the one that always reminded me of the Nazi flag thrown up in the Sound of Music).

Sidenote: as the University is evicting them from their beloved mold-ridden plantation house, the KA brethren have caused a stir by buying land on Hancock for their replacement-Tara. That's right: Hancock. Read: traditionally black neighborhood.

Perhaps flying the new flag is a good ole boy attempt at appeasement?

Tangent: a friend and I always wanted to have a Confederate flag burning on North Campus. I wanted to do it at the Arch; he wanted to burn the one attached to the KA house. Our plan thus ended in stalemate, as we each viewed this as a make-or-break type deal.

Patrick Armstrong said...

A rebel flag burning ceremony? I used to think about the same things back when I just wanted to piss people off.

Then I realized, people who are part of the solution don't need to make specatcles of themselves in such ways: their demeanor and behavior from day to day more than make up for it. If you want to fight racism, don't be a racist and lead by example. It really is that simple.

Burning flags is childish, and is activism for the sake of activism. If you want to prove to others how 'not racist' you are, you have bigger issues than race on your table.

RE: Hillary. Yeah, looks like I started a pretty big firestorm over there. I guess that's my welcome back to Publius and DDDY. That'll teach them to vacation. As to the putting the hellraising "F the Man" symbol on a flag, I think that meaning kind of originated independently.

patsbrother said...

Big Momma Pat:

You still want to piss people off.

You purposely create a spectacle every time you drink.

I wanted to burn the Confederate flag for fun and other reasons, independent of race.

And by your definition, any activism is activism for activism's sake. So have fun winning "hearts and minds" of Americans through inaction. The couch potato has always needed a champion, I suppose.

Thanks, puddin', I'm glad hubris is a family affair.

petallic said...

On a tangential note, one of my students is furious with me because I called him a cracker today. Normally he takes that in stride, but today I meant it, and he knew it.

This same student wears 3 rebel flags on him at all times (his cell phone cover, his belt buckle, and his necklace), which he covers up before coming in my classroom. I did not, however, call him a cracker for the flags, but rather for making a huge loud ordeal in the hall about a new student who happens to be a cross-dresser. He was shouting, "Where is it? I can't see it!" while scanning the hall for the new kid. The insanity has lasted for two days now, and I grew tired of it.

...

A redneck, a teacher, and a cross-dresser walk into a bar. The redneck orders a Bud, the teacher orders a glass of wine, and the cross-dresser orders the redneck to quit checking him out.

Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week.

Laddi said...

Here's my thought:
Hitler ruined a good mustache. The now-dubbed Hitler mustache was an interesting one, but you don't see people around anymore with it. Why not? Because no sane person wants to be associated with Hitler! I could argue (and should be successful in the argument) that the friendly, creative, lovable Charlie Chaplin wore that very mustache and is known for it as well. But really, I'd be happier just wearing a bowler hat to support the goodness of Chaplin. It'd would get people listening to my MESSAGE of the goodness and not focused on their own prejudgments of my facial hair

Patrick even said the very same thing over there, but for some reason, followed it up with "Sweeping, irrational and incorrect statements like "All Rebel Flag wavers are racist" only set us back, and make us the enemies of sweet tea, 'nanna puddin' and Grandma's house loving neighbors". What Patrick fails to realize is that's not the statement at all. The statement is "The Rebel Flag is a symbol of racism" not "Rebel Flag wavers are racist". Big difference. "Hilter mustache is a symbol of Nazism" vs. "Hilter mustache wearers are Nazis."

The racists ruined a pretty good flag. To embrace something recognizable now as a symbol of bigotry and hate (hitler mustache, rebel flag) is foolish when you can use other alternatives. Like the bowler hat in the Chaplin/Hitler scenario, a different flag of the confederacy to display your southern pride could be used.

What's so hard about that? But instead, southerners want to bemoan the fact that the flag is seen as a symbol of racism. But reality check, southerners: no matter how much you say it is not, many many more people will say it is, believe it is, and nothing you say will change that. Failure to recognize the validity of this statement is equally as ignorant as that which you claim about the people who won't listen to "the truth" about the flag. Do you want to be seen styling a misunderstood Hilter-mustache?

It doesn't come down to, "If you don't understand what the flag actually means then you're a know-it-all know-nothing." That the Rebel Flag could also mean "the down home small town South and all the generally good connotations that come along with sweet tea, 'nanna puddin' and Grandma's house" is fine and dandy, but that doesn't change the fact that if you asked 100 non-southern folk what they thought the flag meant, 80% or more would say something about racism.

I find strange that well-educated but proud southerners clutch so tight on the rebel flag because it, to them, is not a symbol of racism. All the education in the world will not change people's opinion on what it symbolizes to them. But southerners are staunchly proud. That's partially what caused the war in the first place. Maybe I should start an educational odyssey to say the rebel flag doesn't symbolize racism, but instead, boneheaded pride. Would I be wrong? I digress...

Laddi said...

***The statement is "The Rebel Flag is a symbol of racism" not "Rebel Flag wavers are racist". Big difference.


In the other blog, Patrick, I see you have explicitly stated your arguments were against the poster who did indeed say "Rebel flag-wavers are racist". Fair enough.

patsbrother said...
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patsbrother said...

Once, in an over-the-top ridiculous multicultural English class, we read a passage from a history book written a while back bemoaning how often white people are surprised when they meet Asians who have American accents. God, the ignorance. The following statistic was then listed on the very next page: 60% of Asians in America were foreign-born.

No one else in the class seemed to recognize a correlation.

Yes, Pat, they're called generalizations, but it's how we get through life. As children, we're taught to differentiate facial structure, chest contour, and hairstyle to learn how to identify who is a man and who is a woman. We learn to associate webbed feet with fowl. We learn to associate this with that. Yes, we encounter exceptions: women with shaved heads, guys with manboobs, successful swimmers with crazy flaps of skin between their toes. We then cycle these new stimuli into our generalizations and continue to build on them. Otherwise, we would go through life like babies playing peek-a-boo, amazed at each new face.

Yes, in the Vinn diagram of racists and Confederate flag "lovers", the later's oval would likely not fall entirely within that of the former. However, using my rubric of experience (and that of some of the other bloggers on that other website), there's may be only a tiny arc sitting off to the left: the rest, my total life experience informs me, is subsumed.

What I don't understand is why you didn't just say: "that statement is not entirely true: I know x people who love that flag and they are, I assure you, not racist." The other bloggers may doubt the validity of your post, but so what?

Instead, you go off on a bizarre rant about grandma's house and 'nana pudding, which, unless life in our family was somehow markedly different before I became a cognizant being, is certainly not your experience. Why create a pastoral flight of whimsy to vindicate an experience you can't own to?

If frat boys think 'nana pudding when they look at the flag, why haven't they ever said so? Why do they only ever grunt Southern heritage and go about their Derby Days, celebrating a society that never really existed, where the gentile women were just as kept as the family slaves and where probably 15 out of 16 of these guys' great-great-grand pappys lived as river rats because the bastards they now lionize prevented them from owning land or participating in a free market economy (which they devotely espouse nowadays) which is enimical to a slave economy?

If its celebrating the heritage of their anceastors who fought in the war and everafter told stories on the porch, fine. Yet they never talk about that (in my experience). They dress in their Confederate officers garb and they get in their hayride and they have their cotton-picking contests and they call that their heritage. Then you see pictures of them online in blackface wearing nooses. If someone's worried about how the world perceives the devout lovers of this flag, then they need to work on their image: I don't have to do it for them.

Patrick Armstrong said...

"Why create a pastoral flight of whimsy to vindicate an experience you can't own to?"

I know this may be hard for you to believe, but life does goes on when you aren't around to see it.

"Why do they only ever grunt Southern heritage and go about their Derby Days"

Well, first of all, when you start of a conversation with a stranger by saying "You're a racist" they tend to get a teeny bit defensive, and any real dialouge or understanding gets thrown out the windows.

Why do people celebrate a historical narrative rather than real history? I don't know the answer to that, but a whole lot of people do it.

There's a bunch of people who dress up like assassins and pillagers and go to parties at the Wesley Center on campus, if historical accuracy must be absolute (the Pirates vs Ninjas event). Hippies celebrate Native American peaceful coexistence values that didn't realy exist. We Christians substituted a fluffy bunny, chocolate and pastel colored eggs for a crucifixion celebration just last week. Black Power groups celebrate African Unity and solidarity while Tutsis and Hutus kill over a million of each other, and Liberians, Nigerians, Sudanese, Egyptians etc, etc. Right wingers celebrate Oliver North and G. Gordon Liddy's patriotic and lawful accomplishments. Left wingers celebrate Che Guevara and the Zapatista's peaceful contributions. I miss the 90's. Why, because I had better style back then?

I guess it just must suck to be perfect and all knowing like you when you have to deal with shmos like me out here in fantasyland.

patsbrother said...

If you ever for a moment though the St Williams Easter Egg Hunt was a reenactment of the Signs of the Cross, you paid attention even less than I did.

petallic said...

Well, I apologized to the student today for calling him a cracker, and he told me he appreciated the sentiment but he just couldn't bring himself "to make up with a woman who would defend a faggot nigger." This from the kid who last week told me I was his favorite teacher and just yesterday morning put my name down on his ballot for Teacher of the Year and told me about it later.

He just stared at me dumbfounded when I started to cry. I told him to go on inside the room while I took a moment. It took me a good two minutes to compose myself, but the other kids could still tell I'd been crying. There were so many reasons to cry, and I just couldn't stop myself.

Every time I try to be open-minded about the rebel flag, I get smacked in the face with something like this. Every. Single. Time.

Patrick Armstrong said...

That kid would have acted that way with or without the Rebel Flag. Kids these days (hell, even back in my days) called everything bad 'gay' (even the hippies) and I know school principals with dirtier mouths than that. People behave badly regardless of demographics or pieces of cloth attached to poles.

You stuck up for someone in the face of bigotry, be proud. Better to take the innane words of an inmature school boy than hear later that said school boy took his bootheels to someone else. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink.

petallic said...

Another one of the flag wearing boys was heard today stating, "If that thing walks in my room, I'll KILL his faggot ass."

It's not a coincidence, Pat. Every negative thing that I've heard over the last three days about the new kid has come from rebel flag wearers. My students are generally pretty open-minded. I think you'd be surprised at how much times have changed in ten years. Even most of my jocks have a "Live and let live" mentality.

And to be honest, this kid who made the comment to me today doesn't usually use language like that because he knows it's inappropriate at school. He's not just some "immature schoolboy." He has a conscience, and he has consistently impressed me this semester as a rational, kind, and thoughtful young man. Gentleman to the core, but with a bawdy sense of humor that has left me in absolute stitches. We've exchanged dirty jokes and recipes, for God's sake. I wasn't necessarily crying over his use of language (though it was offensive), but the sentiment behind the language. I hear both of those words on a daily basis in a variety of usages from a variety of people, but not in that context with that much hatred behind it.

I totally stand behind my choice to defend a child, but I also know that I've lost this student of mine forever. I tried to explain to him that it is important to me that every child feel protected and safe at school, but he just couldn't accept it. He will never again listen to anything I say. I've never wanted so badly to take someone in my arms and tell them I loved them, and then back away and smack the shite out of them. All I could do was stand there, impotent, and cry for his lost innocence.

Patrick Armstrong said...

If you're worried about lost innocence among high schoolers, you need to put down that copy of 'Catcher in the Rye' and slowly step away.

Kid sounds like he just lost his hold on what we like to call "the benefit of the doubt."

So he shows his real personality, and it wasn't what you were expecting. When I was in high school I said incredibly cruel things to other kids and had incredibly cruel things said about me. Sorry, I just can't take a high schooler's irreverent attention grabbing activities very seriously until they start acting on their threats. Finding out that there are some male high schoolers who don't like homosexual black cross dressers is not front page news to me. (And don't be confused, no one 'happens' to be a cross dresser - while everything else is genetic, clothing selection is definitely a deliberate choice. Chalk another point on the board for school uniforms...as a matter of fact, what are kids doing with cellphones in class and cross dressing in the halls anyway?)

Come to think of it, threatening to kill someone is an actual crime in this country, especially in high schools. You should report him. Don't hug him then slap him, tell him threats are unacceptable behavior and you will be calling the police if you hear any such thing again. Bet that would ratchet down his jackassery rather quickly.

Bad people exist. I think it has far more to do with parenting and moral compass and consequences than it has to do with any particular symbol or clothing.

You can never legislate thought or change someone's mind if they themselves are not willing to change it. Weeping because you can't change every mind - what good does that do anyone?

But, by all means, go ahead and don't think it is a coincidence. It may not be. Hell, I didn't want US ports run by a company based out of Dubai, who am I to talk, right?

I guess that means I'll have to stop making distinctions between the bad apples and the bunch.

petallic said...

Pat, the day I metaphorically put down Catcher in the Rye is the day I leave the profession. Idealism is everything in this job (mixed with reality, of course, but still). When you stop seeing the best in kids, they stop seeing the best of themselves in your vision of them. I can't look at a 16-year old whore and see a whore. I have to look at the whore and see a beautiful young woman. That's how this job works.

To answer your question about cell phones and cross-dressers. Cell phones are now allowed in almost every high school in Georgia, though they are not to be visible or in use (putting it on silent is fine). The idea behind the rule change is that a child should have access to his cell phone any time that he would otherwise have access to the pay phone (between classes, before school, during lunch, after school). Parents pushed that one through, and I support it. Kids lead very active lives, and so do their parents. Plans constantly change, and their lives demand immediate connectedness. As to the cross-dressing, we do not legislate whether a child chooses to wear girl or boy clothes. Trust me when I tell you that is indeed a slippery slope, and one that we know better than to attempt to traverse.

"You should report him."

Pat, what do you think we did to the kid who made the threat? Bake him cookies? Give me a didactic break. Threats are not tolerated.

"You can never legislate thought or change someone's mind if they themselves are not willing to change it."

Really, Pat? I've been teaching for eight years, and that never occurred to me! My God, I've been deluding myself and ramming my head into a wall for so long! Thank God you came along to correct my asinine behavior! Come on, Pat, try not preaching to the choir.

"Weeping because you can't change every mind - what good does that do anyone?"

Who said that's why I was weeping? And who even said I wanted to change his mind? I don't need the whole world to agree with me. Part of respecting students is respecting their beliefs, even when they fly in the face of your own. Yes, I was disappointed, but more because those beliefs exist at all. And for the record, and in case you missed it, I'm a GIRL, Pat. Sometimes we cry for reasons even we can't explain. Learn that, and your understanding of women will increase tenfold. What makes me laugh one day will make me cry the next. No, I don't need Prozac or Wellbutrin; this is the state of woman. If men could step out of their boxes for one second, they could look at that and say, "Okay, cool" instead of, "My God, what's wrong with her?"

One man's bad apple is another man's way of life, Pat. Your judgment is what makes it a bad apple in the first place. After all, he's just a hellraiser...like you.

Buzzzbee said...

WOW. I've read the other thread, and I have to say that when you're around insightful liberals you almost forget about those few who just don't get it. I mean those folks over there are exactly the people I'm always hearing Pat talk about. Those left wing folks who just don't get it and consistantly shoot us in the foot. Also, I hope patsbro goes back and explains what he meant by that person's grandad not fighting for free speech, they totally didn't get it or at least chose to be coy about it.

I have to say that calling a student a cracker seems highly inappropriate. I think petallic should be thankful that kid doesn't know how to reach a soft news journalist. Could you imagine a teacher, white, black, hispanic or asian, calling a black kid a nigger. Jesse Jackson would be down your throat faster than you can say race exploitation.

Lastly, I'll just say that I regularly where a belt buckle with a rebel flag on it that says "don't hide your southern pride". You can think what you want about me. I don't really care. There is nothing you can say that will make me ashamed of it. I'm proud to be southern and proud to say that at least one direct ancestor I know of died in a yankee POW camp after fighting for our south. So, I have to say that anyone who thinks I should be ashamed can go to hell. I think that's pg-13, and I hope appropriate for this blog.

By the way, I'm also non-christian, non-homophobic, and I voted for Kerry last August. So, maybe you guys, who are so concerned potential rascism, should stay away from the stereotypes in the future. Besides, the one about "rebel-flaggers" I also noticed one about women being weepy. Way to push the cause guys.

petallic said...

"You can think what you want about me. I don't really care."

Right back at ya.

To be honest, "cracker" isn't nearly the most offensive thing I've said in the classroom. I also told a girl to stop acting like a trifling hoodrat this week, and I said it in a mixed classroom. You can't pussyfoot with teenagers, or they'll run your ass over. Our previous Teacher of the Year regularly says the F word in the classroom. I'm tame compared to her. Students know when your heart is in the right place, and they prefer people who keep it real. That particular boy got his feelings hurt this one time, but tonight at prom he asked me to dance. In his tuxedo, camouflage ballcap with a fish hook, and cowboy boots, we danced, and he apologized, claiming he only said what he said to hurt my feelings like I'd hurt his. I do love that little redneck boy, despite our differences of opinion.

patsbrother said...

They allow fishhooks into school functions now? They don't even allow those on planes...

Buzzzbee said...

Yeah, I meant to say I voted for Kerry last November, not August. I was at work and it was gettin' to be closing time, you know how it is.

Patrick Armstrong said...

You voted for him in August before you voted for him in November? Flip flopper.

: )

Patrick Armstrong said...

And we got more important things than fishhooks to worry about, what about those snakes (on the plane)?

petallic said...

No, the principal told him to remove the fish hook, which he did, but he promptly put it back after he was clean out of sight. I decided our reconciliation was not the time to quibble.

patsbrother said...

I vaguely remember a word called "confiscation". Have we shunned that from the educational lexicon?

petallic said...

If we were on school grounds, the principal might have confiscated it, and he was still well within his rights to do so, but let's be honest: we're at the prom. If we're not going to enforce dress code (cleavage cleavage everywhere, miles of legs, spaghetti straps, strapless, cowboy hats) with the girls, it would seem silly to make a fuss over a fish hook.

But I will tell you this: in the classroom we've been instructed not to confiscate cell phones unless given specific reason to do so. I learned my lesson on that one last year when a girl said a boy was taking photos of her butt with his camera phone. I took up the phone, scanned through his pictures, and while there were no pictures of her butt, there were photos of him...at full attention. I still can't burn that image from my retina.

Teachers have to be very careful with confiscation; we are protected by the law (strictly speaking), but again it's a slippery slope to traverse. It's far preferable to simply ask a child to remove the offending article and put it away. I still confiscate, but only the second time I see an item, and I give it back at the end of the day. If the item is especially out of bounds (like the big black dildo with a chewed end we confiscated a month or so ago), it goes directly to administration.

Buzzzbee said...

Is this really what school is like now? I'm pretty sure that I, being 6yrs out of high school, am the closest to high school of the people who frequent this blog and I find it hard to believe that things have changed that much. Granted, I went to school in Jesup, so the difference could lie in the different school system, principles, teachers, etc., but when I was in school teachers were really diligent about keeping a clear line between what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior. The teachers wanted to be able to relate to the students, but not at the expense of professionalism. I'm quite sure that if a teacher acts "cool" and throws around the "F-word" in class, they will be quite popular with the students, but then they cease to be the authority figure and become just another peer. Petallic gave an excellent example of this when she said she saw a student obviously violating the rules(the fish hook), but was unable to enforce because she more concerned about her relationship with the student. It sounds heartwarming and maybe I'm just being a fuddy-duddy, but I see this as problematic.

Also, I think I may have been a little vague about what exactly the anti-confederate-flag-group don't get. They seem to view the word "heritage" as that useless word that rascists use to keep waving that flag, but to some of us it really does mean something. Not only that, you're alienating the very people we want to recruit.

Also, you have to see the hypocrisy of employing negative stereotypes(racist redneck), to combat perceived racism.

On second thought, I think just using the word "fuddy-duddy" automatically makes you one.

petallic said...

I never said the teacher who used the "F" word was cool. I just said I'm more tame than her. Yes, the kids adore her, but Teacher of the Year is chosen by the faculty, not the students. Is she often inappropriate? Without question. Is she an effective classroom teacher? Hell yes. She produces more state-award winning artwork than any other teacher in the tri-state area. Her students are consistently getting full-ride scholarships to very good schools. She's a big fan of SCAD, and we have a bevy of students there. I recognize and understand your stereotype that teachers who are too close to their students or who are too familiar with their students fail to be effectively authoritative, but trust me when I tell you that some of us are able to find a happy medium. I am close with my students, but there is no question who is in charge. I never have to raise my voice; a stern look or even a cold glare corrects behavior just fine. The girl I called a hoodrat isn't one of my students. If she had been, she wouldn't have been acting that way in class to begin with.

Yes, I decided not to say anything to the boy about his fish hook...at prom. But as you've been following this thread, you'll note that I already stated that the boy understands to hide his rebel flags before coming in my room. I don't prance around the rules just to make nice with children. I enforce the rules, and they respect me for it. Kids appreciate the rules too. But it was prom, and there were breasts everywhere. Patsbrother is sitting here with me, pointing out that a fish hook is a weapon; breasts are not. NAY, I say. NAY!

And yes, I do see the hypocrisy of fighting bigotry with more bigotry, which is why I apologized.

This statement is not pointed at any one person, but this whole "question everything a teacher says" thing gets soooo tiresome. This is why I never argue with police officers, because I understand that every move they make is questioned. It's so tedious. No one ever says, "Well, I'm sure you had your reasons. After all, you are a professional." No, we're all just painted with the same brush of incompetence. It's so pedestrian.

Buzzzbee said...

Once again, due to my lack of internet at my apartment, I'm reading this blog at work. As a result, my last post I started typing when patsbro's comment was the last on this thread and I got pulled away before I was able to submit. Consequently, that next post was made in the mean time and I didn't get to read it. So, I come back yet again because it's really boring at my job, and I was totally confused by the reference to breasts. It took me a minute to realize what had happened. I was thinking "why is she talking about breasts?", but I get it now.

I believe you misunderstood me when I was talking about the matching bigotry with bigotry. I wasn't talking about the "cracker" thing. I was talking about the references to a relatively small extent on this thread and big time on the other, that equate pro-confederate flag people to nazis, and racists, and so on, and so forth. When I made that statement the "Cracker" incident hadn't even occurred to me as being related.

I'm sorry I'm giving off the impression that I'm trying to "question everything a teacher says", but the behavior you're describing sounds inappropriate to me. Believe me, I don't think teachers get paid nearly enough for the crap they have to put up with from other people's kids, and I hate how they've been effectively neutered when it comes to the ability to control their students. The fact that you have to be worried about confiscating something that is interrupting your class seems ridiculous to me. That does not change that fact that the behavior you are describing seems inappropriate to me. This "ends justifies the means"-"she's inappropriate but effective" argument doesn't fly with me. Being appropriate and being effective are not mutually exclusive.

Also, due to the fact that I once saw a lady crushing aluminum cans with her breasts(on the Man Show I believe like 3yrs ago), I have to cast my vote in the breasts can be used as weapons column.

petallic said...

"'she's inappropriate but effective' argument doesn't fly with me. Being appropriate and being effective are not mutually exclusive."

Of course a teacher can be appropriate and effective. Most are. But to say that a teacher with a bawdy sense of humor (read: inappropriate) can't be effective is too large of a jump. Some teachers are inappropriate AND ineffective. In fact, I would say that teachers who exhibit inappropriate behavior are by and large ineffective, but in this particular case I am stating that SOME teachers manage to be both occasionally inappropriate and also consistently effective. I am mild compared to others, but I have my moments. To pull this off, however, one must be incredibly effective, not just adequately so.

And for those of you interested, Patsbrother heartily scoffs at my "women are weepy and it's okay" line of thinking. Oh well, I never claimed it was a popular assertion.